tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post6276709859866095517..comments2023-11-05T05:01:58.563-05:00Comments on Ward Six: MFA application timeUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-45835715042059614512010-01-12T21:43:34.190-05:002010-01-12T21:43:34.190-05:00Arrggh. But that's what so ridiculous. The onl...Arrggh. But that's what so ridiculous. The only point should be writing. Writing writing writing. Teaching is like this whole other thing, speaking as a teacher.ed skooghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03031257497473281838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-64664179113464638392010-01-12T19:16:19.464-05:002010-01-12T19:16:19.464-05:00Yeah, to be clear: I wasn't slamming the polic...Yeah, to be clear: I wasn't slamming the policy (not that it's a "policy," but you know what I mean). Just making a statement on the reality of the situation: if you DO want to teach, you should get the MFA.christianbaumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17601569328960271026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-88044641463013298132010-01-11T17:14:34.115-05:002010-01-11T17:14:34.115-05:00I haven't even heard of Hrabal...another good ...I haven't even heard of Hrabal...another good rec from Ed. I will check it out, you guys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-83002428989237059732010-01-11T15:06:36.667-05:002010-01-11T15:06:36.667-05:00Ed, I Served the King of England is wonderful, but...Ed, I Served the King of England is wonderful, but have you read Hrabal's Too Loud a Solitude? That's a perfect book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-21990157440715890112010-01-11T14:27:16.168-05:002010-01-11T14:27:16.168-05:00And I should add that an unpublished MFA has no ch...And I should add that an unpublished MFA has no chance of a decent job, either. The published writer without a degree is more qualified, but only up to a point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-75906759193567803382010-01-11T11:57:29.943-05:002010-01-11T11:57:29.943-05:00There's nothing controversial about needing a ...There's nothing controversial about needing a graduate degree to teach at a college. You have to prove your investment in the system--academia is a subject in and of itself.<br /><br />We have occasionally had guest stints from writers who don't have graduate degrees--especially if they have proven themselves to be working at the top of their field. They are often superb teachers. But tenure track jobs go to people who have been in the system and are willing to administrate as well as teach.<br /><br />You can get teaching jobs without a degree, but they are usually adjunct or, at best, lecturer gigs. These can be great jobs, but often they are not.<br /><br />I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it is fair, considering what an academic job actually consists of. To complain about this is like the atheist getting turned away at the pearly gates: "But I'm a nice guy!!" It's not enough, you need to kneel down and pay your respects to The Man.<br /><br />Personally, I don't mind this, but it isn't for everyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-24071420155619989462010-01-11T11:03:39.007-05:002010-01-11T11:03:39.007-05:00That's true, Rhian. It's insanely competit...That's true, Rhian. It's insanely competitive. There's a woman working in my office as an administrative assistant who's won prestigious poetry awards, had fabulous publications, and racked up great teaching experience. And she can't get an adjunct job here.Hopenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-22965027932866537842010-01-11T10:40:18.905-05:002010-01-11T10:40:18.905-05:00It's true that academia wants a degree -- I gu...It's true that academia wants a degree -- I guess since it's in the business of giving them, it has a bias...<br /><br />But an unpublished MFA, even with teaching experience, wouldn't be able to get anything but a crap adjunct job teaching freshman comp, paid by the credit hour, no benefits. That's all I'd be able to get, and I have a book and a couple years of experience.rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-89029946207061736932010-01-11T09:02:03.798-05:002010-01-11T09:02:03.798-05:00I have to respond to Christian -- I agree that it&...I have to respond to Christian -- I agree that it's ridiculous that professional experience doesn't qualify a writer to teach. I had a dual BA in Magazine Journalism and English from SU, more then ten years of experience as a journalist, and had published poems and short stories in fairly respectable litmags, and I could not even teach a writing workshop at the community college. Does an unpublished 20-something with a new MFA have a lot more to offer a classroom? Yes, I am diving into the MFA world at the ripe old age of 45 because maybe I do want a crack at teaching someday, and I know I can't without it. Unless, as Christian said, I publish something so sexy and Oprah-worthy that schools are clamoring for me. Hah!Hopenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-82809711478619332002010-01-10T15:33:19.736-05:002010-01-10T15:33:19.736-05:00You're right John and Mark. I loved Montana an...You're right John and Mark. I loved Montana and the program. Heck, I married it. No regrets for going to Montana for my MFA. I fished a lot. I fell in love, I found my best friends. I learned up good in poetry and was challenged in the workshops. (And as much or more on the fiction side.)<br /><br />But my real development as a writer and reader came after (if only because I was so young when I went for my mfa) -- but, crucially, it was still in the context of my friends (you, rhian, etc) that I have written--first readers, intended audience--and read (recommendations, keeping up with the conversation, surprise, delight).<br /><br />Speaking of which: have you guys read _I Served the King of England" by Bohumil Hrabal?ed skooghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03031257497473281838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-869177417623594002010-01-10T14:51:59.536-05:002010-01-10T14:51:59.536-05:00Diana, that's a really good point, and not a m...Diana, that's a really good point, and not a minor one. Eventually, most of us have to make a living. What is it, 2% of published novelists can make their living off of only their books? My advances and occasional royalties were nice and needed, but hardly floated the family. So if you have to make a living, teaching is one appealing way of doing it. You're surrounded by other writers, you get your summers off, etc etc. (Am I correct in my assumptions, JRL?)<br /><br />But here's a funny thing: I have 3 published novels from two different respected houses, have work in 4 anthologies published by major houses, had a stint writing essays for NPR...but I could not get a job teaching undergraduate or graduate if I wanted one. I'm not qualified. Because I don't have an MFA. An unpublished MFA is considered qualified.<br /><br />Now in my case, that's okay. I'm one of the few who really doesn't care to teach...I barely made it out of high school, didn't go to college (let alone an MFA program)...I just don't get along with an academic setting. It's not for me.<br /><br />But it would be a shame if I did want to teach. I wouldn't be allowed to do it. (Only caveat to this would be if perhaps my name was so well known that it was a draw to the school, so they might hire me anyway. Not a fear, in my case.)<br /><br />What I do for a living is much more suited to my brain's wiring.<br /><br />But if you're a writer and have an academic bent, you might want to consider an MFA for that reason alone...possibilities of employment down the road.<br /><br />Mr. Lennon, am I off with this at all?christianbaumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17601569328960271026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-83286363089355687932010-01-10T10:42:11.300-05:002010-01-10T10:42:11.300-05:00I know several published writer friends who are r...I know several published writer friends who are rushing for MFA's so that they can teach. They're mostly folks who have lost day jobs. They see an MFA as a way into academia, not a way to learn to write--although that may be a nice bonus. Not a bad strategy in today's market (although I can't imagine the debt they'll accrue to get their creds...)Diana Holquisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09259451067929029469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-68431692532283080732010-01-08T19:31:26.141-05:002010-01-08T19:31:26.141-05:00I certainly don't need a degree to run the cas...I certainly don't need a degree to run the cash register at ye old book shoppe. In fact, it's a liability -- I went to school with some of the people whose books I'm supposed to be selling. Conflict of interest!<br /><br />If I hadn't gone, I'm not sure I'd have published a book, though. Writing's hard for me, and it helped to have those years, those people, that guidance. <br /><br />But who knows? Maybe I'd have found a different way into it.rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-89518384116450928402010-01-08T19:13:52.438-05:002010-01-08T19:13:52.438-05:00i used to think it all depended on what kind of wr...i used to think it all depended on what kind of writer you are, but at this point every flavor of writing is taught somewhere. the unaffiliated writer or freelance intellectual still exists, but there are fewer and fewer opportunities in print. the web is wide open, You guys didn't need MFAs to do what you're doing here, but what you're doing here doesn't feed the chickens.jonhttp://lastbender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-19604534216752368632010-01-08T16:32:39.592-05:002010-01-08T16:32:39.592-05:00Could be, could be. We should then be starting ma...Could be, could be. We should then be starting magazines instead of trying to make connections with them?<br /><br />I recall you having a fairly good time at Montana, though, Ed. With us fiction writers, anyway!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-20985040803472538972010-01-08T15:12:18.560-05:002010-01-08T15:12:18.560-05:00Maybe so, John, but as publishing is changing so q...Maybe so, John, but as publishing is changing so quickly, I think the MFA may shelter young writers from the more interesting and important developments, and what meaning is there to connections to magazines and publishers when the magazines and publishers disappear?ed skooghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03031257497473281838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-59120889552886798412010-01-07T15:06:57.710-05:002010-01-07T15:06:57.710-05:00I don't think it is, but it sure helps. I sus...I don't think it is, but it sure helps. I suspect it's not that the letters "MFA" confer legitimacy so much as that it puts you in the network of people who know other people. "Oh hey, this was Bob's student, I should give this a look." Or, "Hey, Betsy, do you have any friends who are working on a novel?" It's a convenient short cut for editors who are deluged with far, far, far more manuscripts than they can possibly read, and the first wave is often just passing through an assistant who is half your age.<br /><br />There's nothing sinister going on, but I do think it tends to work out this way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-37733588595948736002010-01-07T14:58:28.283-05:002010-01-07T14:58:28.283-05:00My brother is an actor and that is an even tougher...My brother is an actor and that is an even tougher racket than writing, IMHO. <br /><br />Regarding the MFA, though, I wonder ... is it a prerequisite for getting published at all? At least, for those of us born after, say, 1960 or so ...Hopenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-87719865247926163852010-01-07T14:23:13.557-05:002010-01-07T14:23:13.557-05:00There has to be something *wrong* with a group of ...There has to be something *wrong* with a group of people who keep working away on something so personal and hard won with the constantly reinforced notion that there is very little chance much will happen with it eventually. <br /><br />I know that I'm meant to say that it's all about the writing and if it gets published then that's just an added extra, but, ffs, I can make things up in my head anytime I want. <br /><br />I'm writing for someone other than myself to read it and (sharp intake of breath) like it.zoenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-70392678666553394052010-01-07T14:14:22.089-05:002010-01-07T14:14:22.089-05:00"I am convinced that artists do better by stu..."I am convinced that artists do better by studying any subject other than writing." Bravo. <br />my inability to take rejection with even many grains of salt and a shot of tequila depresses me as much as the rejection, almost. I say almost because not even dental pain equals it. there must be something wrong with writers. maybe we are like dogs, eternal optimists. but i find that hard to believe.jonhttp://lastbender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-85534860761643497902010-01-07T13:33:39.397-05:002010-01-07T13:33:39.397-05:00I was inspired by what Ed Skoog said, and he is de...I was inspired by what Ed Skoog said, and he is definitely someone to listen you.<br /><br />On a personal level, the best education I ever received was when I was a mature student. <br /><br />I am convinced that artists do better by studying any subject other than writing. <br /><br />Honor your art and make a living to support it.<br /><br />Wallace Stevens was an insurance broker, and I think he studied Philosophy...Nancynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-75032403044148023922010-01-07T12:52:32.621-05:002010-01-07T12:52:32.621-05:00Hey Ed,
You forgot to mention that the MFA is goo...Hey Ed,<br /><br />You forgot to mention that the MFA is good for finding a spouse. The best reason to get an MFA I think is that you will almost certainly meet people you like. And then for two years you just get to fuck around with them.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-26141524606428970162010-01-07T09:54:59.082-05:002010-01-07T09:54:59.082-05:00Yes, rejection is terrible, and I won't preten...Yes, rejection is terrible, and I won't pretend for a minute I like it or am brave about it. When I was rejected from Cornell, I was working as a dishwasher in a restaurant and living in a single room without a kitchen. I made oatmeal in a hot pot and got the rest of my meals from what was left over at work. I remember hanging up the phone after my mom told me about the rejection (had it sent to my parents, since I didn't have a mailbox, either) and crying too hard to eat the salad I'd scored from work.<br /><br />I remember crawling into bed in the middle of the afternoon after being rejected by an agent who liked my book, but...<br /><br />Argh. Rejection sux.rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-69527278847362035982010-01-07T09:30:25.859-05:002010-01-07T09:30:25.859-05:00Ha ha. Like it Rhian.
It's so hard to get kn...Ha ha. Like it Rhian. <br /><br />It's so hard to get knocked back though isn't it? I say to myself, "of course, nothing will come of this," when I press send, but at the same time I'm thinking, "maybe, maybe, maybe".<br /><br />I'm not at all cut out for rejection, but there's nothing else I'd rather do. Write that it, not get rejected.zoenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-48110432307951692162010-01-07T08:33:06.372-05:002010-01-07T08:33:06.372-05:00It IS the signature experience, and you have to fi...It IS the signature experience, and you have to figure out a way to deal with it. I recommend making voodoo dolls of your rejectors and putting them in the wood stove. Feels AWESOME.rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.com