tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post2955782809072413035..comments2023-11-05T05:01:58.563-05:00Comments on Ward Six: What makes bad fiction bad?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-70538592148544865702011-01-10T22:40:59.271-05:002011-01-10T22:40:59.271-05:00finished reading the lottery. most bullcrap boook ...finished reading the lottery. most bullcrap boook i have ever read. there was no humour in it whatsoever. i just felt like putting a goddamn gun to my head, just to take away the migraine it was giving me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-91111233306613917472010-09-09T16:05:20.736-05:002010-09-09T16:05:20.736-05:00I love your professor's quote about the cowboy...I love your professor's quote about the cowboy. I think another problem fiction writers have is forgetting their point. They may have wanted to write a story about jail but in the process of writing the story they forgot what they were trying to say 'about' jail.first minute first roundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14910367173515283352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-14940136425125391572008-07-14T15:40:00.000-05:002008-07-14T15:40:00.000-05:00Just a comment about "hook": Unless I missed someo...Just a comment about "hook": Unless I missed someone else defining it, "hook" has its origins in journalism--it's another term for lede or lead. It's the sentence or paragraph that "hooks" the reader into the article or story. It doesn't guarantee the rest of the story is any good or interesting, though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-4286132919407120102008-07-12T18:33:00.000-05:002008-07-12T18:33:00.000-05:00"I'd love to read a book written with rigid linear..."I'd love to read a book written with rigid linearity."<BR/><BR/>me too<BR/><BR/>'chilly scenes of winter' is like that by ann beattie<BR/><BR/>and 'tracer' by frederick barthelmeTao Linhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04807160197099916059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-81544531302256708122008-07-12T18:32:00.000-05:002008-07-12T18:32:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tao Linhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04807160197099916059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-81258621279869352872008-07-12T10:18:00.000-05:002008-07-12T10:18:00.000-05:00Just a thought about the "hook" -- I dislike the i...Just a thought about the "hook" -- I dislike the implied shiny-suit salesman-esqueness of the word as well, but esp. in current fiction, I think the concept is a very valid one ... and the word is a useful shorthand for "reader's reason to invest", whether that investment be time, emotion, curiosity, etc.<BR/><BR/>Reading was different a hundred years ago, when people's access to information was so limited, and probably the only way to ever "see" Wessex was to patiently suffer through the more painful parts of Thomas Hardy's novels, and for many readers, the only glimpse they'd ever have of certain types of society was the time they spent in Trollope's stultifyingly detailed drawing-rooms.<BR/><BR/>But readers nowadays have a much broader baseline knowledge of their own contemporary world, so they need a different reason to invest in a book. Ideally, you're going to tell them something they don't know, but the novelty of information is no longer a reason for most people to read. They're overinundated with useless information as it is ... so I think the concept of the "hook" is a way for the author to prove that the reader is going to get something out of the book that he doesn't already have. Personally, I think the most effective way to do this is with a character who inspires immediate emotional or intellectual interest, as it's easiest to suggest to a reader that he might enjoy getting to know an interesting stranger. <BR/><BR/>... and I don't like fiction that sacrifices readability for being "meaningful." I think storytelling is storytelling, and it should be good even if it's an excuse for the writer's philosophical worldview.David Rochesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07084315223515340046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-22849608345281700932008-07-10T21:15:00.000-05:002008-07-10T21:15:00.000-05:00Frame of reference: when it changes, I change what...Frame of reference: when it <BR/>changes, I change what I'm <BR/>reading.<BR/><BR/>http://theterryfinleysite.blogspot.com/Terry Finleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10059419809921962023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-29761066119623761822008-07-10T12:11:00.000-05:002008-07-10T12:11:00.000-05:00Sorry, signed in as wrong secret identity.Sorry, signed in as wrong secret identity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-91669187530848834772008-07-10T10:42:00.000-05:002008-07-10T10:42:00.000-05:00Who is this "inverseroom" character? Oh yeah, he s...Who is this "inverseroom" character? Oh yeah, he snuck over from music land.<BR/><BR/>For those who don't know: inverseroom= john.rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-16729520848482125012008-07-10T10:23:00.000-05:002008-07-10T10:23:00.000-05:00No question about it, the things that bother me th...No question about it, the things that bother me the most in others' work are those things I'm personally most susceptible to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-78384402256592394802008-07-10T08:20:00.000-05:002008-07-10T08:20:00.000-05:00I think you've hit on it, Matt.I think you've hit on it, Matt.rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-45136754569855610212008-07-10T08:07:00.000-05:002008-07-10T08:07:00.000-05:00rmellis wrote: "However, I'm a fine one to talk[.....rmellis wrote: "However, I'm a fine one to talk[...]"<BR/><BR/>Which raises the uncomfortable question of whether these aspects which bother us so much do so because at some point (perhaps even now) we were/are guilty of such crimes as well.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12235525041894772335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-57311301366413158612008-07-10T08:03:00.000-05:002008-07-10T08:03:00.000-05:00That is still one of my favorite first lines.That is still one of my favorite first lines.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-76307086024048874262008-07-10T07:55:00.000-05:002008-07-10T07:55:00.000-05:00Sorry, didn't mean to go wacko on you, k! It's act...Sorry, didn't mean to go wacko on you, k! It's actually something I've been wondering about for a while, seeing classes that claim to teach you how to "find the hook," etc. Focusing on the hook and not the rest of the book seems like a bad idea -- and I find myself feeling turned off if I suspect I'm being treated, as a reader, too much like a fish.<BR/><BR/>However, I'm a fine one to talk, having started my one published novel with something like, "First I had to get his body into the boat." Sheesh!rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-73735398455489952852008-07-09T21:14:00.000-05:002008-07-09T21:14:00.000-05:00Wow. I guess I hit a nerve with my choice of word...Wow. I guess I hit a nerve with my choice of words. How easily internet conversations can turn to vitriolic debates... so allow me to substitute the word "engaging" for "hooking." And I'm not talking about the first sentence or the first paragraph or any other measurement of ADD reading habits. I'm talking about the first twenty to fifty pages. And I'm talking about established authors who think their reputations are going to carry the dead weight. I'm talking about those who think they're immune to being boring. Even Rushdie and Roth should (and usually do) grab me by the lapels like the ancient mariner to tell me their story. <BR/><BR/>No need to be suspicious, Rhian, I'm not from the marketing department.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-81938557576065717872008-07-09T20:10:00.000-05:002008-07-09T20:10:00.000-05:00Every time I read about fiction writing these days...<I>Every time I read about fiction writing these days, someone uses the term "hook." Where did that come from? I mean the term, because the idea that it's a good thing to interest the reader right away is an old one. I'm suspicious because it sounds like it comes from marketing, like "pitch" or something. It's a good thing to be interesting right off the bat, but does that mean you have to be able sum it up quick for the salespeople?</I><BR/><BR/>Of course. That's what you learn when learning how to write query letters to agents. This is the age of the non-attention span. You hear it from the honest editors too; they freely admit most stores are chucked if they don't pull the reader in by the first page--sometimes, by the first paragraph. That's why so many "literary" stories today start with dramatic sentences (Today, I killed my best friend.); the goal is to keep the reader reading. We have so little faith in the reader, or in his/her ability to spend fifteen minutes on a story, that we have to dupe him or her into continuing to read.<BR/><BR/>One of the first things you learn in MFAland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-32382800869261519012008-07-09T20:00:00.000-05:002008-07-09T20:00:00.000-05:00The book I'm reading is The Uses of Enchantment, n...The book I'm reading is The Uses of Enchantment, not the Bruno Bettelheim one. I'm curious about amnesia right now, that's why I'm reading it, but I dont' think I'm going to finish it.<BR/><BR/>Every time I read about fiction writing these days, someone uses the term "hook." Where did that come from? I mean the term, because the idea that it's a good thing to interest the reader right away is an old one. I'm suspicious because it sounds like it comes from marketing, like "pitch" or something. It's a good thing to be interesting right off the bat, but does that mean you have to be able sum it up quick for the salespeople?rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-85927627110931491622008-07-09T19:51:00.000-05:002008-07-09T19:51:00.000-05:00The problem with putting "realism" on this list is...The problem with putting "realism" on this list is that "realism" (gotta use Nabokov's quotes) is more of a style or even a subgenre than a failure of the writer. You usually know what you're getting into when you open a book. It's like saying I'm tired of memoirs... okay, so I won't read them. Simple as that. No real writing lesson to be learned there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-78876123698185596652008-07-09T19:41:00.000-05:002008-07-09T19:41:00.000-05:00Another vote for humorlessness. When a writer tru...Another vote for humorlessness. When a writer truly lacks all humor, there's something fundamentally wrong with his or her view of the world. And many great authors whom we think of as austere do actually have humor.<BR/><BR/>What is this lauded work of contemporary fiction that is too sincere for its own good? I'm so curious. The Canin book?<BR/><BR/>Here's my contribution: talented literary writers who think they're above "hooking" a reader.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-28808216043240237902008-07-09T13:34:00.000-05:002008-07-09T13:34:00.000-05:00"I'm about half way through a lauded work of conte..."I'm about half way through a lauded work of contemporary fiction, and the laughlessness is killing me."<BR/><BR/>Ditto for all too many lit mags. As a critic once said of a movie I worked on: "There is humour in this film, although you would need a lawyer to find it."Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12235525041894772335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-10865128729427594992008-07-09T11:44:00.000-05:002008-07-09T11:44:00.000-05:00I dislike "realism" even as a term. Is the fiction...I dislike "realism" even as a term. Is the fiction of Nicholson Baker "realism" or not? I think The Mezzanine is extraordinarily imaginative but also absolutely realistic. Roth's Plot Against America is speculative, but totally rooted in reality, too.<BR/><BR/>And some works of purported realism are completely unbelievable and fake.<BR/><BR/>I just don't think it's a useful descriptive term. The best art takes the stuff we know from the world and transforms it via a consciousness. Sometimes it's more or less mirror-like, but that doesn't even matter.<BR/><BR/>Or, GM, are you just sick of dreary domestic dramas?rmellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133206908895131438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-75284147484084340222008-07-09T11:27:00.000-05:002008-07-09T11:27:00.000-05:00Good points listed.If I may add one more. One word...Good points listed.<BR/><BR/>If I may add one more. One word: solipsism. I have such a low threshold for characters (whether or not they be thinly-veiled extensions of the author's ego) or narrative voices which do nothing more than endlessly ponder vague notions without direction or reason for doing so.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12235525041894772335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-63436254810515959982008-07-09T11:20:00.000-05:002008-07-09T11:20:00.000-05:00gcm: go write the book you want! I think it's non...gcm: go write the book you want! I think it's nonsense to say that realism is played out--representational art is, for better or worse, permanent. But I definitely agree that the particular cliches of the genre, as presently manifested, are getting very tired.<BR/><BR/>Gratuitous fancifulness is every bit as exhausting as hardcore prosaicism (word?), but there's a lot more unexplored territory in experimental fiction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-78473826097447103662008-07-09T11:03:00.000-05:002008-07-09T11:03:00.000-05:00I'd love to read a book written with rigid lineari...I'd love to read a book written with rigid linearity. I get sick and bored with flipping back and forth to remind myself who did what to whom when and where? The cuts are usually not even artful, serve no other purpose than to make the novel/memoir seem more complex than it actually is, possessing a philosophical and emotional depth that it completely lacks, fooling perhaps the author's mother, but never me. I throw them down half read and stomp on them.xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17866348942612559536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2046663689477874544.post-51394956882517697992008-07-09T10:55:00.000-05:002008-07-09T10:55:00.000-05:00This probably won't be met with high fives and che...This probably won't be met with high fives and cheering from the Ward Six crowd, but here goes:<BR/><BR/>I'm tired of the reign of realism. <BR/><BR/>Updike took the podium a few years ago, proclaiming: <BR/><BR/>"There are fads in critical fashion, but a writer at his peril strays too far from realism. Especially in this country, where realism is kind of our thing."<BR/><BR/>While I don't think he's necessarily correct - we birthed and celebrate Poe, Lovecraft, Dick, etc., and we may one day be better known for the work they inspired - he does hit on a valid point: literary fiction, or fiction deemed literary, the top of the invisible hierarchy of genres, is largely dominated by realism – so much so that the terms are pretty much used synonymously.<BR/><BR/>I don’t dislike realism – I love Cheever, I like Carver, it’s hard to dislike authors as consistently powerful as Alice Munro – but I feel that its been overplayed, and has been for years. I’m tired of it. I think others are as well. (See Chabon, Lethem?)<BR/><BR/>I have a hunch that the latest “fad” in the literary / publishing community – i.e. the hyping of realist fiction set in locales or concerning people that are (for lack of a better word) undocumented, and usually coupled with an uplifting moral message – is the best indication that the genre is nearing its Malthusian limit. Now that realism has been set as the style of choice, now that it’s been institutionalized, there’s a rush on subjects to for it to capture, package, and present. I’m talking here about books on life in Afghanistan, on the Chinese immigrant experience, on the African genocide, etc. Also about the relative banalities of daily life in [pick region of America], told from the perspective of [pick gender/social class/political bent]. The prose of each of these works is usually decent, sometimes beautiful, at worst passable, but the stories they tell – giving fictionalized accounts of subject matter that might better fit non-fiction (see Rhian’s earlier post on the topic) – are consistently similar. They present many different views of the same world, the same reality.<BR/><BR/>I’m tired of that reality.<BR/><BR/>I want inventiveness, creativity: an author who creates a fresh, brilliant world of her own. Less obsession over prose, more substance. Less feeling, more thought. <BR/><BR/>I feel like shouting: Create! Create!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com